Clerical Child Sexual Abuse

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:09

I am quite confused and not a little unsettled by what the author is saying. Child Sexual Abuse is not about sex, rather it is about control and domination. And let's not conflate things here. The mental health services are Victorian and totally pharma controlled.
I personally would obliterate the Vatican, as would most Christians I know.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:51

'...was considered able to distinguish between right and wrong...Its only when we became adult that we forgot how and needed the assistance of guidlines handed down from above.'

Considered by whom?

I'm a father(as opposed to your 'celibate' Fathers')and knew before I had kids myself that it had taken me into my mid-twenties to work out an integrated ethical system and recover from the distorted, sexually-fixated morality of the Roman cult(the same cult that overtly boasts that if it gets its grip on the mind of a child up to 7, it has secured it for the necessary duration).

Your unintegrated ramblings, Sean, prove once again that you are in no position to pontificate on matters of mental health. In fact it bothers me that you seem impervious to attempts to point out the contradictions in your firmly held beliefs, not matter how politely you are asked to review your statements.

Might I suggest you change the name of your dubious organisation to impervio.

Not unlike the Vatican, and its heirarchy, obdurate and stubborn in your conviction of your own vertiginous righteousness.For which enough children have suffered, and continue to do so, for you to be prosecuted for even attempting to defend the institution responsible for their abuse and the ongoing protection of the perverts involved.

I sometimes wish I could believe in your fabricated god of justice, it would be a consolation to think there might be some afterlife where each and every defender of this sick institution would be ressurected at the recieving end of the horrors it perpetrated, and continues to defend through the likes of its tame apologists such as your self.

by Sean Crudden Tue Jul 19, 2011 23:45

Look lads, it's late at night and I had a busy day. But just a few holding comments. Yes, I am trying to conflate things. Why limit concern to one particular form of abuse? Which forms of prevalent abuse are the most insidious and far-reaching? My correspondents are old enough to know that there are many kinds of diabolical abuse and it it often worse if it is institutionalised as psychiatry is or many of our so-called educational practices.

I am not an apologist for anyone and I doubt if anyone would choose me as a person to write in their defence or on their behalf. Opus, you twist my brain. Sometimes I think I know what you mean and more times your drift eludes me. Generally I get the idea that you have some kind of beef with the way I think and you have no compunction in being at least slightly abusive. All I can say in general is that popular witch hunts arouse my suspicions and at the time I used to read two cowboy books a day I learned to reject mob rule and lynch law..

by Pat Pewkneeler Wed Jul 20, 2011 04:13

I have visited Sean's website and see that its pictorial and verbal content reflect a traditional Irish catholic life. The mainstream catholic life of the twentieth century worked for a lot of people in Ireland and later when they emigrated; but the Ryan and other reports reveal that it worked brutally inhumanly against others, and the true facts took a long time to surface.

I note Sean's openness in covering a way of life that has worked for him and his community friends and associates. Historians, and journalists, tend to pass by the ordinary and home in on the extraordinary, especially horror stories and other scandalous distortions.

Victims of distortions and coverups are insisting on their belated share of the microphone and the historian's analytic attention - and on practical action by current politicians and lawyers. The deceased ordinary generations won't be making special pleading. Irish people have had varied experiences of living, with the harshest experiences currently considered to be most newsworthy.

by Rational Ecologist. Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:57

Hi Sean. I really don't see how you can describe the desire to defend young people's right to justice and the prosecution of people who collude with abusers as a "witch hunt". Of course there are many other forms of abuse as you rightly point out, however, in the specific case of clerical sex abuse, justice has not been done to the survivors. This is no way detracts from the other forms of abuse you refer to. I abhor psychiatry and I agree it is a form of abuse and I would support any campaign that seeks to hold it answerable to its, by and large, shameful record.
The thing here is that shameful cover up and facilitation of the abuse of children, by the hierarchy.

by Ever feel you've been had? Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:59

People here keep attacking the Church.

What if the Church is but a convenient scapegoat?

Not an innocent scapegoat mind, but a convenient guilty scapegoat?

The Church could have carried out no cover-up without the collusion of civil society.

So far there has yet to be so much as one report that looks properly at the role of those in civil society who facilitated (or maybe helped instigate?) the cover-up.

The Murphy & Ryan Reports were supposed to be quite comprehensive. The only people in civil society who had fingers pointed at them were long dead.

This is simply not plausible, given that the abuse detailed continued until relatively quite recently.

The cover-ups could not possibly have occurred without the collusion of Gardai, Lawyers, judges & POLITICIANS etc. In other words - without the connivance of civilians in positions of power.

Yet almost none have been mentioned in the various reports. The few that have are for the main part, as I said, long dead. It is not plausible though to maintain that whatever networks were employed to assist (or even instigate) the cover-up in civil society are now somehow defunct.

The Murphy report at one point discussed the case of at least 3 priests from different geographic locations who abused the same group of children. None of these children were living in institutions.

this obviously constituted 'an organised ring' - yet the Murphy report refused to describe it as such.

And it gets worse.

Immediately after describing the activities of what was undoubtedly "an organised ring" of child abuser, the Murphy Report went on to say that "There is however no evidence of organised rings of child abusers".

Again, this is a quite preposterous claim given that the Murphy Report had just described the activities of one such ring.

This claim that "There is however no evidence of organised rings of child abusers" was repeated in every newspaper which chose to discuss this aspect of the Murphy Report.

Every single one.

Yet the claim makes no sense.

Yet not ONE journalist or newspaper in Ireland questioned the claim. Not one.

If that's not a cover-up, then what is?

Below is a picture of the front-page article of the Kilkenny People printed in 1997. Despite the story claiming that names of "A Bishop, a high-ranking Garda, a Minister and a number of 'high-profile' personalities" would be circulated on the internet, as far as I know no follow-up story was ever printed.

With the exception of 'a bishop' all others are obviously secular - i.e. NOT members of the clergy.

As far as I know, no high-ranking Garda, no Minister (or Ex-Minister) and few if any 'high-profile' personalities have every been prosecuted in relation to child abuse.

So there is an obvious cover-up concerning the identities of these people. A cover-up which the Irish Media is involved in. A cover-up which is still going on.

the Irish media seem these days to be quite hysterical when it comes to publishing details of child abuse when the perpetrators are Clergy or ordinary members of civil society. Yet there is silence on the issue of Gardai, Politicians and 'high-profile' personalities.

In the UK there have been many child abuse scandals centered around Childrens Homes - Bryn Eystyn and Jersey to name but two.

In every one of those scandals abused children have named members of the Judiciary, Lawyers, Politicians as being responsible for their abuse. Few if any members of the Judiciary, Lawyers, Politicians have every been prosecuted as a result of such abuse.

So either the children involved are lying or there is a massive cover-up in the UK.

All of this occurred without any involvement of the Catholic church.

Given that Irish Society so closely resembles British Society in terms of structure, legal system etc etc. it is not a great leap-of-logic to presume that something similar has occurred here.

Ever feel you've been had?

by ever feel you've been had? Wed Jul 20, 2011 13:01

DALKEY RAPE ALLEGATIONS MADE AGAINST TWO GARDAI
Irish Times, 11 July 2005
by Marie O'Halloran

Detectives are examining new rape allegations, against a Garda and a retired Garda, made by the wonam at the centre of the Dalkey abuse case.
The two gardai are to be interviewed, following claims that the woman was raped in the 1970's by them, [when she was less than 11 years old.]

The allegations are understood to have been made in the past two weeks, and are being treated by the gardai "with sceptism", according to one Garda source, in part because of the delay in making the claim.

by Sean Crudden Wed Jul 20, 2011 20:28

Yes indeed. There is an element of piling on the agony here. The church is almost defenceless in the context of present accusations/difficulty/abuse and it is an easy target for the bully boys and opinion makers. It's a bit like hitting someone when they are down, to use boxing parlance. Really I am not in a position to comment on the historical detail of what happened and who covered up what. I have read none of the reports. But I agree the spotlight should be on the police, the HSE, the newspapers, the radio, the television. These are the people who are professionally responsible for implementing the law in connection with child abuse and the others are the people who should alert the public to wrongdoing and investigate anti-social behaviour. The media never tell us anything about financial malpractice, sexual abuse, psychiatry in any real sense; in time. They generally raise the hue and cry when all the abuse and scandal has already taken place and they usually find some convenient and defenceless scapgoat to blame.

by Rational Ecologist. Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:13

I really don't think that anyone is saying that the Catholic church is the only organisation responsible for perpetrating these crimes against children. I have heard no-one say anything to that effect so I am very confused and angry that this is being implied. I acknowledge that the vast vast majority of men(!) on the clergy are decent human beings, however, there is an old adage to the effect that evil happens when good men stay silent. Of course that can be said for other institutions/organisations, however, that is a wider debate, albeit one that needs to happen with the greatest urgency possible. It must be stated that any, even tacet, defence of the Catholic church on this one is indefensible. I would like to state it even stronger but I will try to maintain my decorum. The Vatican deserves condemnation. This is nothing that those within the church, lay and clergy, feel but dare not express. It may be convenient for the state to deflect attention from where it has, and continues to fail, children, however, this is not the current issue. Just because the state has failed children does not detract from what the Church has done and should not be used to minimise it in any way!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Jul 21, 2011 17:06

..the poor old defenceless church is being bullied by those evil kids that the priests tortured, enslaved and raped for their own good. How fucking twisted can you get?And you have the unmitigated gall to write about mental health. Grow a fucking conscience.

And the spotlight should be on everyone but the sadist criminal perpetrators. You seem to represent everything that is wrong with the sick institution.
I begin to withdraw that benefit of the doubt, in proportion to your ongoing defence of the indefensible.

And none of them raised the hue and cry before the events. Hang them.

by a pseudonym Thu Jul 21, 2011 18:30

Opie, might I respectfully suggest that you take the time to examine the Dalkey abuse case I referred to earlier - IMHO close examination of the content and structure of newspaper reports at the time will indicate a willingness on the part of the Gardai to portray the allegations of the Woman involved as nothing but fabrications - this despite the fact that several members of her immediate family have committed suicide. Such a high rate of suicide with one family stroinglky suggests that her allegations are not fabricated entirely, if at all.

Her sister also made statements regarding the alleged abuse which would appear to lend credence to the claims of abuse.
Also the wife of one of her brothers also accused that brother of also abusing his daughter.

The brother was never prosecuted for abusing his daughter nor his sister - this despite statements being read in a separate court case which indicated that he had confessed many years ago., to a friend, that he was having sex with his sister.

Statements were also read in court, from women who were her friends at the time of the alleged abuse, that indicated that she may indeed have been made pregnant a second time. She claims the second pregnancy was as a result of rape by a Garda. She also claims that a second Garda sexually abused her (presumable without actual rape taking place)

The DPP refused to bring prosecutions citing the amount of time passed. This is unacceptable imho.

IMHO he media has colluded with the Gardai to cover-up the details of this alleged abuse. Both the media and the Gardai have claimed that her allegations of Gardai abuse stem from so-called 'regression therapy' - as far as I can ascertain the Gardai themselves are the sole source for this claim of 'regression therapy'.

Anonymous Garda sources were widely quoted by journalists at the time. Almost all of their statements are phrased in such a way that makes it appear that the only logical starting-point in investigating these allegations is from a point-of-view that they are false. Logically one would have thought that the starting point should be that the MAY be true, rather than that they may be false

IMHO there is ample evidence to support a claim that the media and Gardai may have colluded to cover-up evidence of the existence of pedophiles, at the time of the alleged abuse, within the Gardai itself.

I reapet what I said earlier: The Church has not been innocent in this regard - they certainly are guilty of covering child sexual abuse within the Church - but they could not have done so without the widespread collusion with Civil authorities.

The fact that the civil authorities colluded in these cover-ups suggests the possibility that within the civil authority structures lies another ring of unmasked abusers.

IMHO the continued focus on the Church and the Church alone, is becoming a distraction.

The way we are drip-fed these reports suggests that someone somewhere is trying to extract as much mileage out of it as possible - not necessarily a bad thing of itself.

But if it is being done so as to distract attention from other organisations, who also bear responsibility for these cover-ups (such as the Gardai, the Judiciary, the HSE etc) then it can only be detrimental in the long run

by (Very) Patient Thu Jul 21, 2011 20:24

I have no idea who Sean Crudden is, but his views are tiresomely familiar repetitions of the dogmatic rejection of reality that characterizes older, more traditional Ireland.

I have been in psychiatric care and know exactly the kinds of chemical, emotional and physical abuse that he writes about. Psychiatric care can be brutal and inhumane.

However, it can in no way be compared to the diabolical abuse that involves older men fucking the children placed in their care. (It is precisely the sexual abuse that caused me to be subjected to psychiatric care). I am disgusted and saddened that anyone would compare attempts to care for mental illness, no matter how misguided, with the deliberate and calculated exploitation of children. But I am not surprised.

by Sean Crudden Fri Jul 22, 2011 00:14

Patient, I am sorry for your troubles; I have had plenty of my own. It's late at night and a cursory glance at this thread indicates that it is generating more heat than light. I like the latest fashion in golf gear but I think where philosophy is concerned the older the idea the better! You use the word exploitation in connection with the abuses the church is being tarred with. I do not know any of the details but I think no-one is saying there is exploitation involved here. It is straight forward abuse more or less along the lines of your colorful expression. However I have no hesitation in proclaiming that mental patients are being exploited. Psychiatry is keeping many big Mercedes cars on the road as well as a plethora of Toyota Corollas; the proceeds of systematic and inhuman abuse of mental patients.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri Jul 22, 2011 16:30

You may respectfully suggest anything you please, but you are not breaking news to say the Gardai were complicit in these crimes. The whole population was suckered into a complicit silence and blind eye mentality.

My point is that the Roman church holds itself up as a moral paragon, its whole justification for its existence being that it frames the ethical criteria of our society, and on the strength of that, claims special priveleges and access and authority over education and children, even more so than the gards, judiciary, political collaborators and general obsequious population. This means exceptional responsiblity for making sure any transgressions be dragged into the light and that moral authority be displayed and practised in such a way that the institution was seen to conform to the standards it demanded of the population at large.

Add to that the monopoly on higher education and the leverage for intellectual bullying and intimidation of the generally semi-literate victims and their families(and there are class dimensions to these crimes)and the recidivist failures to learn the lessons of repeated exposures and I think the reasons for the emphasis should become a little clearer. And still the apologists are rolled out to prate their whataboutery.

I hope that clarifies why these psychological parasites require special attention.
Sean, above, gives a perfect example of the ongoing denial with his reference to 'tarring', as though this pernicious cult was the victim rather than the perpetrator and conspirator in covering for the perpetrators. Nor is he apparently aware of the numbers of clergy to behind the wheels of state of the art chariots. But you'll have that with Romans.

We can have no serious change until the whole moral universe of sexual hypocrisy is exposed and dismantled and the reasons for its distortion of ethical thinking are exposed for the collaboration with retarding the progress of our people is revealed to the general population. The good news is that each passing generation weakens their vampire grip. But we have a way to go yet. And the roads lead all the way to Rome.

by you've been had Fri Jul 22, 2011 16:50

that Church bashing, rather than any concern about Child Sexual Abuse is the main motivation of most of the people posting here.

"My point is that the Roman church holds itself up as a moral paragon, its whole justification for its existence being that it frames the ethical criteria of our society, and on the strength of that, claims special priveleges and access and authority over education and children, even more so than the gards, judiciary, political collaborators and general obsequious population"

pure nonsense - we just had the leader of this country making political-hay yesterday when he lectured the Church in fine hypocritical style - but his gov't has no intention of investigating the allegations of Child Sexual Abuse by Gardai Politicians mentioned in the Kilkenny People article of 97, posted above.

The hypocrisy of the sanctimonious church bashers is getting pretty nauseating

Sanctimonious Church Bashing is also a fine way for the execrable Enda Kenny to distract attention from the economic Armageddon he and his pathetic excuse for a Gov't have helped unleash on this country - and there's no shortage of blind fools willing to help them in that task it seems, if the reply of Opus is anything to go by

by you've been had Fri Jul 22, 2011 16:56

We can have no serious change until the whole moral universe of sexual hypocrisy is exposed and dismantled and the reasons for its distortion of ethical thinking are exposed for the collaboration with retarding the progress of our people is revealed to the general population. The good news is that each passing generation weakens their vampire grip. But we have a way to go yet. And the roads lead all the way to Rome.

more pompous nonsense from Opus - the exact opposite is true - Fuck all will change as long as all people you do is spend you time pointing fingers at the Church alone - while at the same time deliberately ignoring the MAJOR role played in these cover-ups by the civil authorities - YES the Church is guilty, no doubt about it - but they could have gotten away with nothing without the collaboration of the Civil Authorities. And there's as yet been no real investigation of THAT. And as long as people like you keep sanctimoniously harping on non-stop about the church all you are doing is helping the Civil Authorities hide their own role in all this

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri Jul 22, 2011 17:02

Its all 'church bashing' and there is no case to answer???

And its us that are sanctimonious, not the church and its heirarchs???

Were there ever ANY kids raped, enslaved etc.etc. by the church, or are they sanctimonious church bashers as well??

Do, please, confirm. I never realised that the burst eardrum I recieved from the CBS was just me being 'had'. I always thought it was as a result of me refusing to be 'had'.

Keep on digging your hole. While you're busy doing that the kids are safer.

Oh, and have you inside info that any report into garda crimes will definitely be ignored?Do post it here, we may be able to do something.

by you've been had Fri Jul 22, 2011 17:32

Its all 'church bashing' and there is no case to answer???

let's have a look at what I actually said,

YES the Church is guilty, no doubt about it - but they could have gotten away with nothing without the collaboration of the Civil Authorities

Looks to me like being up there on your high-horse is effecting your reading abilities Opie

"And its us that are sanctimonious, not the church and its heirarchs???"

I'd say both you and the Church are fairly sanctimonious

Were there ever ANY kids raped, enslaved etc.etc. by the church, or are they sanctimonious church bashers as well??

again let's have a look at what I actually said,

YES the Church is guilty, no doubt about it - but they could have gotten away with nothing without the collaboration of the Civil Authorities

Deary me, Opie - you really are having problem understanding what has been written, are you not?

And 'enslaved'? I presume you're talking about the Institutions, cos if not your use of that word makes no sense at all - So presuming it's a reference to the Institutions - Who The Fuck sent those kids to those Institutions, Opie? Who was supposed to monitor the running of those institutions, Opie? guess who ? The Civil Authorities, Opie - the Gardai, The Judiciary, The Health Boards, The Dept of Justice, The Dept of Education.- and the failed miserably.

But oh wait - it's ALL the Church's fault !! - the others were just at the mercy of the Church right? Poor little innocent Gardai, poor little innocent Politicians, Poor little innocent Judges - could notstand up for themselves because they are so timorous& powerless, right?


Do, please, confirm. I never realised that the burst eardrum I recieved from the CBS was just me being 'had'. I always thought it was as a result of me refusing to be 'had'.

Opie the State allowed ALL of that. The CBS couldn't do that to you, it's an organistaion, not a person. ONE particular teacher did it - and lot's of teachers in Ireland were doing things like that and most of them were not even members of the clergy - the culture of this State allowed such things to happen - the Civil Authorities did not prevent any of it - that was their job, they failed miserably

Oh, and have you inside info that any report into garda crimes will definitely be ignored?Do post it here, we may be able to do something

What 'report into garda crimes' are you talking about, Opie - to my knowledge there has been none. If you know of one do tell, won't ye?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Fri Jul 22, 2011 17:51

You do get excited.

Maybe if you stopped being so fucking personal in your resentments at me, left me to my narrow little fixation with the moral paragons of the church, and put your steam into giving details of the civil collaboration it might look a little less like you're one of the god squad trying to divert the current concentration on its crimes.

Strikes me you're more worried by my insistence on seeing the church hung out than you are bothered by the fucking abuse. Distinct echo of crud off your heated returns.

I have nowhere said civil collaborators should be excused(quite the opposite).Seems to me you're putting up a straw man for diversion.

Most Jesuitical.

by yeah Fri Jul 22, 2011 23:40

Maybe if you stopped being so fucking personal in your resentments at me,

That's your own paranoia Opie. from what I can see the only one here harbouring personal resentments is you with your personal resentments with Sean Crudden

left me to my narrow little fixation with the moral paragons of the church,

You do seem to specialise in narrow little fixations alright - and completely miss the bigger picture, time and again. As said earlier there's as yet been no real investigation of State and Garda and media collusion in these cover-ups. They ALL kept silent and none of them did their jobs. And as long as people like you keep sanctimoniously harping on non-stop about the church all you are doing is helping the Civil Authorities hide their own role in all this

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:36

I dont think you even know what the word paranoia means. If you do, expand on exactly what it is I'm supposed to be paranoid about.

As for Sean Crudden, I've never met the man, have tried to be patient with his clerical obscurantism and contradictions and have little reason to waste time 'resenting' his plentiful likes. But i do object to anyone juvenile enough to still believe in the fairy-tales of the Vatican setting themselves up as an authority on mental health. It mirrors the catholic pretensions to moral superiority when they are closer to the whited sepulchres they are fond of preaching of. No doubt you will now reply that it is me is preaching. If so I think I have as much fucking right to as the self-entitled very reverend parasites who run these paedophile rings across the globe. Neither the Irish government nor the gardai have the international reach to promote the church's abuses in canada, the US, Africa, Australia and all the other places this perversion has been exposed within your church. Is that the 'bigger picture' I am missing?

And I repeat, you seem more obsessed with trying to divert the thread into some decoy vendetta rather than use the space to elaborate(I wont be arguing with your case)and expand on your quite justified accusations against other state institutions and their decoy tactics. Unfortunately, as stated, you seem less interested in such a course, than in finding a polemic stick to trash about with. I do NOT take it the least bit personal. I've encountered such protectionist damage limitation strategies before(they are not so uncommon).

If I do carry any resentment it is not personal, not will your efforts elicit such a response. What i do resent is priestcraft and the refusal to think it induces by pumping a culture of fear of its deities, and their casuistic and hypnotic methodologies for supressing rational and balanced discussion. And I resent the fact this institution retains so much pernicious power over our culture, and particularly over children and their early years, depite its exposed crimes.

Any judgement as to adherence to honesty or even-handednes, I am happy to leave to readers and editors.
As Dave Allen used to say, 'May your god go with you'.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Jul 23, 2011 14:31

..as for that '..no real investigation of State and garda and media colusion in these cover-ups...'

Does it never occur to you that these State and garda and media colluders are simply obeying the instructions of their dominatrix Mother Church?

This one is no chicken and egg riddle.
The church boasts of its 'eternal mission', was here before we were(including the colluders it 'educated' into obedience on fear of eternal damnation)and bears the primary responsiblity.
Even if State and Garda and media colluders were active paedophiles themselves, the chances are they were recruited into rings established before they were born(read a little history of the Roman church's celebrated celibacy)and quite likely introduced to sexuality through the church's corporate networks.

Neither the state, garda or media have corrupt, expansionist, eternally and infinitely ambitious designs on the souls of our children, or if they do it is secondarily, as servants of their incestuous momma Rome.

by art Mon Jul 25, 2011 02:37

It is time the Church influence was out of the education system and other institutions entirely, and people start to think for themselves.
We were taught in church schools that Eve was spoken to by a snake in the Garden of Eden and this led to original sin. If one was to go to the zoo and say the snakes are talking to me then it wouldn’t be long before persons in white coats would be called to deal with the insanity, as it is now known that snakes don’t speak. Then there was the teaching that God sent his only son across the galaxy to planet earth, sometimes referred to as, the planet of the apes, where the apes would kill him in order to save the apes. Is it any wonder people get confused?
The explanation is quite simple; it is now known in psychiatry that if a child does not learn a language in early development, the brain undergoes a biological change that is not reversible and the child mind is likened to that of a feral child. Likewise if a religious belief system is programmed in, during early development, it takes on a life of its own in a no go area of the mind, which even the disgusting debauchery within the church his little impact. Parents should act responsibly and rather than allow clerics an opportunity to propagate a nest for themselves in undeveloped minds insist that their children are educated to survive in this world, rather than the next.
As is now verifiable through our DNA that all humans have a common ancestry and for a religious belief system to have any meaning, there would have to be an acceptance of this fact. The truth based on facts should not be regarded as church bashing but when children have suffered appalling abuse within the institutions it is time to reach for the pitchfork.

by Rational Ecologist. Mon Jul 25, 2011 09:53

The current issue here is the collusion of the Vatican in the cover up of the crimes of the clergy here. This fact cannot be disputed. To repeat myself: thE Vatican covered up and colluded in obscuring crimes against children in recent years. Any attempt, by anyone, to minimise this fact is contemptible. No one here is naive enough to imagine that our civil authorities do not have a huge culpability here-OF COURSE THEY HAVE, NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT!!!!!
I am no fan of Kenny but his words should be welcomed, belated as they are. Yes the State need to do so much more, however, let us stick to the issue at hand. A fact that abhorrent to most church-going, old-fashioned catholics, none of which, bar on this thread have I heard trying to dilute the guilt of the Vatican.
A devout Christian of my acquaintance said to me last week that the Jesus he believes in would demolish the Vatican and go back to a simpler church. I am not a person of faith myself, however, I could empathise with his anger.
Stick to the point lads!! Lets make sure we build a society where this can never happen again.

by Sean Crudden Mon Jul 25, 2011 13:48

Cardinal Seán Brady preaches without pomp, bombast, arrogance. He stands up straight. His speech is erudite and explicit. His accent and tones are those of his native Cavan where people have a practical bent and are free of pretence. As a matter of interest Cavan’s second greatest footballer after the fabled John Joe O’Reilly was a bald man, Mick Higgins. Pope Benedict XVI is a lively and fit man who has his wits about him. He has endurance and a sense of fun. His intelligence remains undimmed by the years. For people like me and my ilk as we approach our 70’s he is a shining exemplar at a human level. Speaking entirely personally my own feeling is that the principal leaders of the church today, as far as I am concerned, suit me well, are fit for purpose; and I cannot imagine two more suitable men for the jobs they are doing. I am not impressed at the hatred and venom being whipped up in Ireland recently about the Vatican. Enda Kenny and his team might be better occupied minding their own business. For example I suspect that bog men generally ruled and rule the roost in the Departments of Justice and of Education. In my humble opinion these two government departments are the fons et origo of most of the ignorance and aggression that children have had to endure in Ireland since the 1950’s and before. The Fine Gael Party and the Blueshirt influence historically in Irish society did a lot to preserve and perpetuate ignorant abuse and they should be wearing a more penitent mien today.

Bellurgan, Co. Louth. Evening

by Rational Ecologist. Mon Jul 25, 2011 13:59

Sean you clearly don't want to listen and because of that there is no point attempting a rational discussion with you. I don't share your role models. I will contribute no further to this thread as Sean doesn't want to listen at all. There is no doubt about the culpability of the state, however, this is a distraction and a minimisation tool in the current debate.
Your Church is a dysfunctional bureaucracy, that has lost touch with any spirit-divine or otherwise.
I despair!!!

by (Very) Patient Mon Jul 25, 2011 15:30

As reported by Stuart in another article on Cloyne, "Cloyne has 18 paedophiles (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-claims-not-one-was-found-guilty-in-court-of-law-2821179.html) amongst just 132 priests (http://www.cloynediocese.ie/priests-of-the-diocese/). That equates to 13.6% paedophiles. What happened in their selection or training that such a high proportion of priests here are paedophiles? Did the hierarchy encourage it as the lesser of two evils, perpetrate it within the seminaries or otherwise breed paedophilia into the diocesan mind-set? It is safer to leave your children with a convicted sex offender than in the care of Irish Catholic priests, because most sex offenders have no interest in molesting children (47 of 694 or 6.8% of convictions in 2010)."

This is no small minority here, but a such a substantial proportion of child-fuckers most other religious must have witnessed many crimes during their careers. Criminal organisations, who commit additional harm by abuse of power in cover-ups and white-washing, seems entirely rational. Sean Crudden, Brother Edmund Garvey, Eric Conway and all the other apologists can do nothing at this late stage.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Jul 25, 2011 19:05

Well ya didn't lose yer Latin with yer marbles.

Methinks you've been communicatin with the Holy Spirit of J. Jameson again.

The trouble with your diversionary argument is that all those you accuse, of being as responsible as the church for abuse, are loyal members of that church, and give that institution priority, due to their early indoctrination, in all their loyalties and in their moral and ethical templates, all formed in the institutions of Roman juju.

The primary responsiblity returns to the prime source, the sexually perverse moral theology of religious superstition.

Fons, et origo.

by Seán Crudden Mon Jul 25, 2011 23:22

Opus, you should stick to the facts. The only alcoholic drink I consumed in the past month was a glass of ice-cold white wine beside entrance 37 to The Cusack Stand, Croke Park, on Saturday afternoon. Unlike you I do not need to raise the bus fare to make a trip like that. Loyalty is an unusual concept coming from your lips. How many of the people you are talking about are loyal to anything in fact?

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Jul 26, 2011 09:22

Best to be loyal to nothing than loyal to tyranny! Be loyal to your own internal humanness and innate sense of right and wrong. The Church is dead! The Amazon burns and the Clergy(some not all) still prattle on about sexual morality and f**k children.
Wake up!!

by Seán Crudden Tue Jul 26, 2011 09:37

Hey, Rational Ecologist, why don't you stand back for a minute and let Opus Diablos answer my question which was directed towards him. I know what you are talking about but let's try to keep this thread sequential and cut out the damnatory malarkey which is clouding and obscuring the substantive points in this discussion. Another thing is that when I started this thread mental patients were my main consideration. I called the thread Child Clerical Sexual Abuse and perhaps that was misleading because in point of fact I know bugger all about it. Mental patients are my main concern, as I say, and I have gained a certain amount of knowlege about that situation most of it based on personal experience. I don't know whether you are as young and impetuous as Opus but I am sure you have lived long enough to know that managers, teachers, nurses, parents, psychiatrists; often use abuse and bullying as a modus operandi. Some of this bullying is covert and most of it receives gerneral and tacit approval.

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:04

Sean, perhaps you should have made it clearer from the beginning. I am not a fan of the pseudo-science that is Psychiatry and perhaps we would have a lot of common ground there, however, I will hold my views on the other issues.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:12

'How many of the people you are talking about are loyal to anything in fact??

Aside from the fact you raised the groups in question and I was following your trajectory, most of the people referred to at least professed and practised a superficial loyalty to Rome and its superstitions, being indoctrinated, as I was myself till I transcended the contradictions. They were loyal to Power, as represented by the church of Rome and as it served to give them power.

As for your ad hominems about my pecuniary state(relevance?)and the inappropriate nature of the term 'loyal' in my vocabulary, perhaps you might be honest enough to reciprocate and elaborate as to your implication?I wont be holding any inhalations.

And if you cant handel Rational E's interjection, perhaps your half-baked ramblings are not ready for publication.

'Young and impetuous'? Why does your condescension remind me of a certain abusive Christian Brother and his supercillious presumptions?Judging from your snapshot we are of the same generation.

Perhaps I'm just less geriatric psychologically, having escaped the deadening clutches of religious scelerosis on the psyche.

by Rational Ecologist. Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:29

I'm in my 44th year and worldly-wise and not a little weary. I am obstinate, difficult, impetuous(perhaps) and still in touch with the child in me that sees through the bullshit. I embrace my stubborness and my refusal to bend the knee to power. I think for myself and often get it wrong but at least I have that freedom, albeit limited in our shadow world. The light still shines but tryranny and lies obscure it.

by Seán Crudden Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:46

Gosh, Rational. We have the number 44 in common this year. I was born on 9 April 1944. 44 was the favourite number of "Western" writers. The hero often sported a 44 slung around his waist! It looks as if the motif of the lone avenger has a particular relevance today. What do you think motivated the Norwegian gunman?

by Seán Crudden Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:14

Well, Opus, I'm tempted to say that if bullshit were money you would be a very very rich man indeed. All I will say however is that money is bullshit at the present time. No, what I mean is that I have free transport. I rode The Enterprise free from Dundalk to and from Croke Park on Saturday. I can tell you that Kildare is a nice team; Cork is a powerful team. When I was drinking that container of chilled white I dwelt fondly on the memory of Charlie Hauhgey one of the last fearless politicians we had in Ireland. There is probably a cure for religious sclerosis if athero-sclerosis has not yet set irreversibly in? I'm learning, Opus. You are older than Rational; and more impetuous?

by Jonty Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:33

It is really unfortunate that someone damaged by alcoholism, who places so much blame on the professionals who have sought to treat his disorder, would also draw child sexual abuse into his narcissistic projections. The "dry alcoholic" (perhaps George W Bush is a prime example) creates debate that is almost always devoid of positives, and always has the alcoholic individual as its centre-piece, completely unaware that the real issues are not centred around himself.

Hence I suppose this bizarre claim to be concerned about mental health care (although every statement revolves around a personal experience), attached to a headline of clerical sexual abuse - a subject that the author professes no knowledge of (despite 15 years of teaching children ...) and no interest in.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:44

All my careful and rational responses to your contradictory ramblings are 'bullshit'.

Nor do you answer my questions, as usual.

But the good news is your pretensions have been drawn out to transparent thinness, and you are as a result less likely to persuade the vulnerable that you have the slightest authority when it comes to the delicate subject of mental health.

That suffices.

by Seán Crudden Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:04

Hi Jonty. It looks as if you know me from somewhere. Sorry I cannot return the compliment. Let's be a little more accurate if not a little more tolerant. I have been teaching all my life as most of us have. I was employed as a full time teacher of maths and science in Dundalk Technical School from 1964 until 1980. The last 5 years of that span I spent at home because I was suspended from teaching. I gave up alcohol for Lent in 1997 and abstained strictly ever since until I went on a pilgrimage to Italy a few years ago when I generally drank 0.5l of wine with my dinner. Nowadays I sometimes split a bottle of white with my wife over a pizza. It's absurd to say I am interested in mental health care. I never made any such claim. I am interested in mental patients; I am secretary of IMPERO; I am a board member of ENUSP. And I am getting to like George W because you hate him so much?

by Seán Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:09

Thanks be to God, I have no authority and never had, Opus. I never worked any miracles and I never expect to. But I am getting confused here. What was the question you expected me to answer? Perhaps the editors' tolerance will not be stretched too much if I ask you to repeat it and oblige an old man?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:35

I never expected you to answer, sean, you never do.

But for a former science and maths teacher not to be capable of returning to the post he obviously read this morning and find the question mark indicating the question asked...well... it explains the suspension. Leave the other mental patients alone, sean, you'll only compound their problems, whatever your intentions.

by Seán Tue Jul 26, 2011 13:23

I notice you did not deign to oblige me, Opus. Mental patients have been left isolated, alone, misunderstood, for at least 4 generations. The organisations I am involved in are dedicated to finding a remedy. How can you be so dismissive? Have you no heart? Do you not feel for mental patients? Or are you such a big man that you feel it does not matter how mental patients are disposed, abused, scapegoated? What exactly is your question? I can see you have some kind of beef but I would like to know exactly and comprehensively what that beef is.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Jul 26, 2011 14:24

You are literate, if confused. The question remains where I posted it and you read it earlier. Go look, its a few posts up.

I have a heart. It pumps the blood round my veins. I have concerns about mental patients and mental illness, and have studied the subject for a while, plus having had dealings with disturbed individuals, not least some of the parasites masquerading as their helpers and healers.

I hold the church as one of the main contributors to mental distortion and consequent suffering on this island and beyond. Call it a beef if you wish, I consider it an objective diagnosis, given that many of those I consider mentally healthy confirm my analysis, and every pronounciation of religious-minded believers, rather than inquirers, shows by their accumulating contradictions that I am not a million miles off the mark.

You headed this page as Clerical Child Sexual Abuse, proceeded to obfuscate and pontificate and divert responsibility from the church despite the mountains of mounting evidence. That is not my understanding of mental health, which requires, primarily, a willingness to critically analyse one's own self and motives without falling back on the security of man-made institutions claiming authority from some fairy godfather.

The scattered and disconnected scramblings of your posts indicate a disturbed lack of INTEGRITY, i.e. integrated thinking, a coherent value system, a non self-contradictory set of opinions and a capability of concentrating on an issue without personalising any contra-arguments presented in a civil manner. I do not wish to follow your lead into personalisinga serious issue you seem to dabble in with a CONVICTION of some spurious authority you obviously have not earned, as is proven yet again by your 'innocent' inability to return to an undeleted post you insist on having regurgitated.

Yours is the feigned pietistic 'innocence' of priestcraft. Am I right in thinking you taught under the auspices of a religious order?There ya go, a fresh question. And here's another, if not why the defence of the indefensible behaviour of that rotting edifice, the Roman heirarchy?

by Seán Tue Jul 26, 2011 15:44

Hi Opus. This is my last post of the day. I have to sing in Our Lady of The Wayside Church at a special mass and blessing for grandparents starting at 19.30 and I want to relax, chill my brain, get in the mood beforehand. I will offer up the first hymn in reparation for your sins i.e. if you were ever guilty of even the slightest peccadillo. I worked for the Co Louth VEC. There was at least one catholic cleric on that committee and he was and is anathema to me. If you read some of my posts you will gather that I have gone to the trouble of finding out about the hierarchy as far as it concerns me; I have visited the Vatican; I saw the Pope in action. I was immersed in catholicism in my youth and I did not develop an outright contempt for religion as you apparently did. There was a new church erected not far from my front door a decade ago. I like it. I am an old man. Time to contemplate my last end and reconcile myself with the failures and frustrations of a life imperfectly led. Anyway I will return to the "lost" question on Thursday. I have an all-day commitment in The d Hotel, Drogheda, tomorrow.

by Blazes Boylan - none Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:31

Séan, you have a right to believe in anything you like if it makes you happy. The church has a duty to protect young people. It claims to follow Jesus, who said of offenders against children - "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." That's how the church has quoted the man for 2,000 years. 

Now the whole issue is about money, and the taxpayer is in the front line on this, even if he is a Muslim or a Buddhist. In the godless US of A the church has had to pay over a billion dollars in compo because it is held legally responsible; a word that has no real meaning in Ireland.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:29

Well, one symptom would be a refusal to accept the evidence of your senses and to surrender your judgement to superstition and wishful thinking.

I reckon another is the unhealthy designation of perfectly natural sexual acts as 'sinful', the attribution of guilt by 'original sin' to innocent new-born children, the belief in supernatural powers and communication with imaginary beings. All sane developmental behaviour in children, but unnatural and mentally inappropriate in mature adults.

Save your prayers, I'm too far gone on the road to hell(never mad about harp music anyway).

by Seán Crudden - impero Thu Jul 28, 2011 00:37

Well, Opus. Human perception is a funny thing. We are all familiar with the difference sleep deprivation makes and a few pints colour reality differently. I have often been totally deluded myself. Many times in my life I guessed right but many times also I guessed wrong. Even playing golf there is no sure fire way of deciding on the correct club to use. So even the most perceptive individual has not got a totally sure and certain grasp of reality. Then again different people see the realities of existence, politics, family life, football; differently. For example my wife almost always manages to hate the people I like! Child like wonder; science fiction, cowboys and indians, superman, Jules Verne, Aesop's fables; the imaginative dimension is not totally removed from the real world. For example my father who was a registered mental nurse dismissed film. "It's only shadows moving on a wall," he reasoned and he maintained it had nothing to do with reality. But most people today would consider his point of view absurd. Maybe he had a point? My own background is in science and throughout my life I have tried to be meticulous about observing and recording everyday life as I see it just as we were trained to do at school when we were carrying our science experiments. But there are other narratives. The religious paradigm gives us a framework in which we can understand, describe, deal with the reality of life, in a coherent system. I don't think it has anything to do with reality. It's a linguistic thing, it's narrative. James Joyce who was a pagan used this narrative to great effect and with great comic skill somewhere in The Dubliners. A psychiatrist like Jonty above speaks a certain language. Alex Ferguson has his own paradigm. You yourself talk a language which speaks eloquently of your background. Who can set down one particular correct way? We are probably all wrong. That thing you mention about original sin, and sinful sex is a load of baloney no-one believes in. The sin that worries me most is pride the greatest of the 7 deadly sins. Incidentally you accuse me often of having a spurious authority. I have no authority. To return to the "lost" question. The reason why I remind you of that supercilious abusive Christian brother is probably because he and I are both teachers. You have no use for teachers, Opus. You know it all already.
Impunity

---

by W. Finnerty Thu Jul 28, 2011 09:51

I think it's misleading, and imbalanced, to be spending too much time on this particular form of human abuse (in isolation of all the many other forms): deadly serious, damaging, and important though child sexual abuse by clergy is (I believe). Abuse it seems to me is in large part a function of bullying of one kind or another, and the biggest source of energy that I know of for the many kinds of bullying in question, lodges in, and comes from, the general phenomenon of impunity (as I see things): "Impunity means the impossibility, de jure or de facto, of bringing the perpetrators of violations to account - whether in criminal, civil, administrative or disciplinary proceedings - since they are not subject to any inquiry that might lead to their being accused, arrested, tried and, if found guilty, sentenced to appropriate penalties, and to making reparations to their victims."  

by Rational Ecologist. Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:08

"Impunity means the impossibility, de jure or de facto, of bringing the perpetrators of violations to account - whether in criminal, civil, administrative or disciplinary proceedings - since they are not subject to any inquiry that might lead to their being accused, arrested, tried and, if found guilty, sentenced to appropriate penalties, and to making reparations to their victims."  

I would argue that the above is exactly what I am arguing against. The thread relates to the abuse of children by clergy and hence the nature of the discussion, as opposed to a more broad-ranging debate on the topic of abuse. To generalise the debate, however, may function to minimise the specific crime we are currently addressing. A philosophical debate is not what is required, rather we need to discuss how we should act in this instance and use the insights to broaden our responses across the spectrum of abuse.

by W. Finnerty Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:23

I would suggest that the best way to act, for the purpose of eradicating child sexual abuse by clergy, is to attack -- from all directions -- the impunity that is sustaining it: by every peaceful, respectful, and lawful means available to us. Similarly for all the other forms of human abuse which mainly depend for their ongoing existence on impunity.