Irishness Incompatible With Britishness

by lulu Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:29

No place for all the people who love Ireland and Britain and despise the governments of both?

by radical jonny Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:43

Talk to any anthropologist or geneticist:

We're all related.

To hate one or the other is, in a very real sense, self-loathing.

by Michael Hogan Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:21

To use the term BRITISH is a very misleading term, for it denies an individual of their culture.

Because to be British, a person has to be of one of the other nations that is of :- Cornwall, England, Gurnsey, Jersey, Manx, Orkney, Wales and Scotland.
Note: these small Celtic Nations are also working towards gaining freedom from the domination of the UK government that sits in London.

The term British is a collective geographical description only and relates to the island of Britain and nothing else.

From my time spent among the people of our neighbouring island. I found many who could not understand why the people of northern Ireland clung to a perceived idea of British-ness, that actually does not exist and cannot exist for them.

The peoples of the island of Britain refer to any person who comes from Ireland as Irish and they give no other distinction.

To be Irish is to come from or have allegiance to the island of Ireland. Just as to be Cornish is to come from and have sole allegiance to Cornwall.

by Olive Fri Nov 28, 2008 13:54

It's like trying to be a Celt and Roman at the same time, when in certain very basic and important ways relating to social structures and attitudes, both history and archaeology show these two ancient groups to be as different from each other as chalk and cheese - and possibly for genetic reasons, which cannot easily be altered or wished away.

Live and let live, and allow people to be themselves and to respect each other?

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Differences+between+Celts+and+Romans&btnG=Search

by Jim Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:01

Instead of killing people because of dreamt up differences like race, tribe, nationality, religion, politics etc why not love your fellow human beings and live together in peace?
Let the dead bury the dead.

by FrankAdam - private citizen Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:50

As already mentioned to be British is an administrative convenience for trade, defence and diplomacy to allow the four nations of the British Isles to be treated as equal citizens with separate Scots law and separate Welsh language. If the UK breaks up it will be because the largely Tory English will declare an end to subsdising Scots, Welsh and Ulster folks in local governement and much else the Celtic Fringe have done well out of by way of careers in England and the erstwhile Empire. Remember that for her twelve years in office screwing down expenditure in England, Scotland and Wales Mrs T / Bloody Margaret never cut civil financing in Ulster.

The devils in the details are first everybody in the UK has always seen themselves according to their nation - a point that goes back to the four captains scene in Shakespeare's "Henry V". That applies to the English too, whence the confusion of foreigners to call all British "English" because after all 80% of the population lives in the 55% of the acres which are England and so the most representative abroad by sheer numbers. All of which also explains why the country as a state did not get too worked up about who we/ I - is/ were/ are .... Why it has treated all Irish who come in as if independence is abroad and not in UK; and the expression "Best of British luck.," still runs and a come day go day attitude to (other) nationalisms still prevails over a sharp eye for the bottom line.

The other - tricky - point is the jargon of modern politics comes from the French Revolution & the monoculture of Catholic France does not distinguish nation and citizenship / "statehood" in the way the four nations of the British Isles are distinct religiously as well as geographically and historically. Into the bargain France was the biggest single state and population in Europe till the 19th century and in Western Europe till German unification, therefore French and its culture was the international language and template till the full emergence of the US in 1945; so "nationality" even on a British passport carries the French interpretation of citizenship and nationality. However most civil countries recognise "dual nationality," or rather, "dual citizenship," for those of a scattered "nationality" - a point the Irish state makes by issuing passports on request to all born on the Island of Ireland thus exposing Sinn Fein as somewhat blinkered.

by FrankAdam - private citizen Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:50

As already mentioned to be British is an administrative convenience for trade, defence and diplomacy to allow the four nations of the British Isles to be treated as equal citizens with separate Scots law and separate Welsh language. If the UK breaks up it will be because the largely Tory English will declare an end to subsdising Scots, Welsh and Ulster folks in local governement and much else the Celtic Fringe have done well out of by way of careers in England and the erstwhile Empire. Remember that for her twelve years in office screwing down expenditure in England, Scotland and Wales Mrs T / Bloody Margaret never cut civil financing in Ulster.

The devils in the details are first everybody in the UK has always seen themselves according to their nation - a point that goes back to the four captains scene in Shakespeare's "Henry V". That applies to the English too, whence the confusion of foreigners to call all British "English" because after all 80% of the population lives in the 55% of the acres which are England and so the most representative abroad by sheer numbers. All of which also explains why the country as a state did not get too worked up about who we/ I - is/ were/ are .... Why it has treated all Irish who come in as if independence is abroad and not in UK; and the expression "Best of British luck.," still runs and a come day go day attitude to (other) nationalisms still prevails over a sharp eye for the bottom line.

The other - tricky - point is the jargon of modern politics comes from the French Revolution & the monoculture of Catholic France does not distinguish nation and citizenship / "statehood" in the way the four nations of the British Isles are distinct religiously as well as geographically and historically. Into the bargain France was the biggest single state and population in Europe till the 19th century and in Western Europe till German unification, therefore French and its culture was the international language and template till the full emergence of the US in 1945; so "nationality" even on a British passport carries the French interpretation of citizenship and nationality. However most civil countries recognise "dual nationality," or rather, "dual citizenship," for those of a scattered "nationality" - a point the Irish state makes by issuing passports on request to all born on the Island of Ireland thus exposing Sinn Fein as somewhat blinkered.

by Michael Hogan Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:57

There is surely nothing wrong in a small country wanting to be independent to make it's own decisions and freeing it's self from an over bearing nation.

For Ireland, Scotland and the other small nations there are no dreamt up differences - freedom from oppression in the form of civil liberties being removed from a body of people, were and are reality.

Much more than that the was the oppressor in Ireland's case, who was guilty of far greater deeds than merely removing civil liberty, lives, homes and land too were taken at whim.

Talk and debate are fine if your opponent cares to listen, learn and make policy changes to the others betterment. When there is no desire to do so, well Combat is then the only answer.

As for the dead burying the dead - well I have yet to see a corpse capable of doing any thing other than to lie very still.

by Mike Fri Nov 28, 2008 16:42

"t's like trying to be a Celt and Roman at the same time, when in certain very basic and important ways relating to social structures and attitudes, both history and archaeology show these two ancient groups to be as different from each other as chalk and cheese - and possibly for genetic reasons, which cannot easily be altered or wished away."

That's a terrible example. Many of Romans of Northern Italy and almost all of them in Cisalpine Gaul and along the Meditranian litoral about as far as "Marsala" WERE Celts. Rome was a POLITICAL state, not a "nationality".

Or considering the British Isles, many/most of the Scots were Irish and/or Scandanavian (as opposed to people of one of the "British" cultures. The fact that "Roman Britain" was Roman by organiziation/government didn't mean that the PEOPLE were immigrants from the middle of Italy.

Genetic reasons?????? You think that when the first wave of Celts invaded Italy they didn't leave their genes behind? Or that the Vikings didn't leave their genes behind in Ireland? We don't know that the earliest waves of humans who enetered and occupied Ireland were Celts (and they probably weren't -- the dates of the megaliths likely before Celts had moved that far into Europe)

by lulu Fri Nov 28, 2008 23:28

Check out 'Blood of the Isles' for our genetic history.
Are you saying we can choose to be ruled by pigs in the Dáil or in Westminster or Stormont?

by Michael Hogan Sun Nov 30, 2008 07:18

Blood of the Isles by an Oxford Don that intimates that the Irish have an average IQ of 93 - h'm not exactly a book to recommend unless
one happens to be pro-British ?

by Real Republican Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:33

Its pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that RSF are a small bunch of loonies and crackpots, who equate posting a press release to political action. Half wits them all. i mean i read that press release that RSF sent out about the X Factor, you couldnt make that shit up...total brasseye, and an embarrassment to republicanism. Luckily there are sensible, active groups like eirigi around.

by reject Sun Nov 30, 2008 13:23

You should really change your email a/c
BritishTelecom internet.com is hardly very irish
pot kettle etc

by Mike Sun Nov 30, 2008 14:02

Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough and so possibly misunderstood.

Genetics is totally irrelevant with regard to human cultures. It matters not at all who provided the sperm or even the womb. All that matters is the culture that gets to bring up the child. None of the differences that make up the diversity of human cultures are biological differences. You aren't Irish because of your "blood" but because of the Irish "village" that raised you and from whom you learned the Irish way of being human.

by Pythagoras Mon Dec 01, 2008 08:09

To what extent do "feelings of injustice" influence "culture" in human society, and why is it that human beings (and indeed some of the higher animals such as chimpanzees for example) have a very well developed and potent "sense of justice" genetically programmed into them while in the womb (and consequently not directly influenced by "local environment" conditions external to the womb)?

1) "Justice preoccupies child and philosopher alike. The importance of fairness is evident in the meticulous manner in which children demand that it be demonstrated in every detail."

2) "Injustice is unpalatable to all age groups. It confuses the child, angers the adolescent, appals the adult and outrages those who have seen its consequences too often. This is because they know the many human systems in which injustice may locate itself and 'justify' its lodging."

3) "Being the recipient of such an injustice is more than an emotion. It is excruciatingly visceral. It invades the human psyche with the most lancing cut. Depending on the severity of the injustice, life may ever after be divided mentally between the time before and after the unjust event."

The above three excerpts are from an Irish Times Article (by a psychologist) reproduced at: http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.com/MarieMurray19April2006/IrishTimesArticle.htm

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Anglo+Norman+Invasion+of+Ireland%2C+1169+AD&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=